Resilience Isn’t Just Toughness: Ciaran May on Burnout, Leadership & Human Performance

In this episode of The Integrative Continuum, Dr. Richard Rocker is joined by Ciaran May, founder of Natural Resilience, leadership and human performance expert, TEDx speaker, podcast host, and corporate consultant.
This conversation explores the deeper meaning of resilience, not simply as toughness, grit, or the ability to push through, but as something much more human: emotional intelligence, self-awareness, recovery, community, connection, and authentic strength.
Ciaran shares his own journey from growing up in West Belfast to competing internationally as a powerlifter to eventually realizing that the version of resilience built on pushing harder, enduring more, and holding everything together can come at a cost. After years of high performance, his body and mind began sending signals, fatigue, irritability, low mood, overwhelm, disconnection, and burnout, forcing him to redefine what resilience truly means.
Together, Richard and Ciaran discuss why many high performers, leaders, business owners, parents, and professionals appear successful on the outside while quietly becoming depleted on the inside.
This episode explores:
•Why resilience is not the same as emotional suppression
•The hidden cost of “winning at all costs”.
•How chronic stress affects decision-making and performance
•Why recovery is essential for long-term success
•The role of community, connection, and communication in health
•Why vulnerability can be a strength in leadership
•The danger of social disconnection and digital overstimulation
•How leaders and high performers can use simple tools to build self-awareness
•Why personal responsibility is central to personal development
•The importance of boundaries, emotional intelligence, and knowing when not to enter the “whirlpool” with others
•How true resilience includes both grit and the ability to rest, reset, and recover
Ciaran also explains practical tools such as the traffic light system for emotional and physiological self-awareness, and why asking “What colour am I, and what is my direction of travel?” can help people recognize when they are moving toward burnout before they crash.
This is a powerful conversation for anyone interested in health, leadership, performance, stress, burnout, emotional resilience, men’s health, workplace wellbeing, family life, and the deeper human factors that shape long-term wellbeing.
As always, the aim of this podcast is to explore health, performance, and resilience through an integrative, systems-based lens, looking not only at the body, but at the deeper drivers of human function, behaviour, and long-term wellbeing.

Disclaimer
This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and does not constitute medical, psychological, or personal advice. The views shared by guests are their own and are intended to encourage discussion, reflection, and education.
Always consult with an appropriately qualified healthcare, mental health, or professional advisor before making changes to your health, lifestyle, medication, treatment, or wellbeing plan.
If you are struggling with your mental health, feeling overwhelmed, or in crisis, please reach out to a trusted person, healthcare professional, or emergency support service in your area.

Guest Contact Details
Guest: Ciaran May
Company: Natural Resilience
Website: natural-resilience.co.uk
LinkedIn: Ciaran May
Social Media: Natural Resilience

Dr. Richard Rocker Contact Info:
Website: https://rockerclinic.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drrichardrocker/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RockerClinic
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-richard-rocker-589127/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You've landed at the edge of what medicine has known and what it's becoming. I'm Dr. Richard Rocker, and this is the Integrative Continuum of Biology, Energy, and Human Potential. In each episode, we explore how quantum biology, frequency medicine, and ancient healing systems are transforming our understanding of health. This is where mitochondria meet meaning, and blood work meets bioenergetics. Subscribe now and join me on the frontier of integrative healing, where science and soul are no longer separate. Today's conversation is one I've been really looking forward to because we're stepping slightly outside of the traditional clinical model and into an area that, in my view, has a profound impact on both health and performance, how we understand resilience. I'm joined today by Kieran May, founder of Natural Resilience, leadership and human performance expert, TEDx speaker, podcast host, and corporate consultant. Kieran's journey is a powerful one. Growing up in West Belfast, he developed resilience early in an environment shaped both by physical and emotional challenge. He went on to build what many would consider outward success, including competing as an international powerlifter, but like many high performers, there came a point where that version of resilience, based on pushing, enduring, and holding it all together, began to break down. That moment became a turning point. What followed was a complete redefinition of resilience, not as toughness or invulnerability, but as something far deeper, a model grounded in emotional intelligence, self-awareness, community, and authentic strength. Through his work with Natural Resilience, Kieran now works with individuals, leaders, and organizations to help them grow and move beyond surface level performance and into something more sustainable, something more human. His work challenges the traditional narrative around performance and asks a very important question: are we truly performing at our best? Or are we simply pushing through at a cost? In today's conversation, we're going to explore what resilience actually is and what it isn't, the hidden cost of pushing through, the role of emotional intelligence and connection in performance, and how all of this ties back into long-term health, well-being, and leadership. This is a conversation that applies whether you're a clinician, a business owner, a leader, or simply someone trying to navigate life at a higher level. So, Kieran, welcome to the show. Richard, thank you very much, and thank you for such an eloquent introduction. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So, um, Kieran, uh, for those meeting you for the first time, what did resilience mean to you growing up and how has that definition changed?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Great question. I suppose, Richard, for me growing up, um, I suppose for everyone growing up, you only know what you know. And I love I love the quote by James Clear that says, environment is the invisible hand that shapes human behaviour. And the environment that I grew up in in the late 80s and the early 90s in West Belfast was um it was an environment which was very unique. Um, it was an environment it's I'm very, very proud to be from there. Very working class environment, but also an environment deeply impacted by the legacy of the troubles. Um, so I mean, my own uncle was shot dead a month before I was born in 1986. Um, like the area I grew up in had, you know, killings and bombings, and and as a young child, I remember soldiers on the street. And I don't say that to paint this, you know, picture of I had a bad childhood, far from it. I I had a very I had a great childhood. There was a lot of love. We we we got taken to the countryside and the summer holidays to kind of escape that, but but for me, resilience was community resilience. I grew up in an area where people shared food, they shared resources, they were impacted by things like poverty, by legacy issues, by trauma, by the tragedy of the troubles. But what I seen was a people that were very, very cohesive, very united, very resourceful, very kind, um, very humorous. You know, it was it was a community that that really that really came together in the face of adversity. So growing up, I seen both sides of of that resilience where where people maybe had to be resilient. So it it impacted them in ways such as addiction, such as anger, such as fear, uh, but also the positive side where people came together to support one another. And uh, you know, I I I I vividly remember both sides of that resilience coin as a child, uh, the the collective feeling of fear uh and and um misunderstanding, but also the positive element of communities coming together.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, it's um I think this is um I think the community aspect is is really important to health. And I think if we look uh traditionally or ancestrally, how we came back, I think community uh was a big part. If you didn't have a community, that meant you might not survive. And I think in this day and age where we seem to be um we seem to be separated more and more from things uh and maybe technology has a little bit of a a part in that as well. I I I see that with I see that with children these days as well. It seems uh parents are using technology now to look after children, and that's now the babysitter, and I think that's a really dangerous area where we're going into. Do you have any any thoughts and experience on that?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, Richard, I I think I think like like everything in life, you know, tech technology is here for for humans to expand and to grow. It's a tool for us to use. The problem is technology is using us in many ways. I believe we have become addicted to the dopamine that technology provides. And I think, you know, we when you look at screen time of a lot of individuals, you could be pushing seven, eight, nine. There's some teenagers spending 12 hours per day on screens. Now, that, in my opinion, is very unhealthy. And I feel as if in the age of social media, we have become more antisocial. And what I mean by that is we are spending less time with parents, with cousins, with friends, with partners, and we are spending more time in the front of a digital screen. And the problem is we are getting a synthetic version of dopamine through digital screens as opposed to real and healthy dopamine that we get through human connection. Now, I don't want to fall into the trap or the narrative to say that technology or social media isn't a positive thing. It absolutely can be and it absolutely should be. But like all these things, we must use it as opposed to it using us. And I think, again, you will know the the the answer and the research better than I, but I believe that there is a alignment between disconnection at scale and mental health issues at scale. And and I believe that community and human connection is a massive, massive, I suppose, essential ingredient to positive mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health. You know, humans, humans thrive in community. We all we always have, Richard. If you look at the the evolution of humankind, we have evolved in community, we have, you know, evolved in tribes, we have evolved in villages, in societies. And I believe, like maybe in the past few decades, that that we we are spending more time in isolation. Uh, and and again, I'm not so sure that that's a positive thing. I I think humans going inwards and being reflective is absolutely a positive thing. But when we are when we are swapping time with other human beings in authentic conversations, developing trust, developing and nurturing relationships, when we are sacrificing that for time scrolling on mobile phones or just sitting in the house, I I think it's a massive issue. And it's a it's an issue that's going to become more prominent, unfortunately, as the years, as the years unfold.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think it's um I agree with you saying technology to be used as a tool. And I think people's sense of reality, it it really shifts when we get ingrained too much in the technology. And because the the technology can be so stimulating uh that now regular life becomes boring because it doesn't give you the same, like you said, that dopamine, that that hit anymore. And I think this is uh becomes a real big issue uh because it really knocks down our spirit. Um it really takes away from that. And um as we discussed earlier before we came on, you know, we we exist on different levels. Uh health and wellness is just not a physical thing. It's uh it's an emotional, it's a psychological, it's a it's a spiritual, energetic thing as well. And we have to look at all those levels. Um, absolutely. Yeah. So um you've spoken about building what looks like success on the outside. We mentioned that in the beginning. You you've been into powerlifting, you have you've had some great achievements, great drive, but something wasn't aligned. So what what kind of cracked first to make you realize that I I don't know is the honest answer.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I I I I think on reflection, Richard, I well, I suppose that to give you an overview, I suppose in the early days that transition from boyhood to manhood I struggled with. And I think the reason I struggled with it is because my craving for acceptance was stronger than the craving to be myself, and so I gave up part of myself on a regular basis to be accepted into the crowd. Um and one of my ways to get acceptance as I got older was ambition and achievement. And so I worked harder, I pushed harder. Um I I suppose I labeled success with ambition and achievement solely as opposed to fulfillment, as opposed to alignment, as opposed to clarity. Um I pushed most of my 20s. Uh into my 30s, I represented Northern Ireland in powerlifting. And in 2019, I I went and represented my country in Newfoundland and Canada at the Commonwealth Powerlifting Championships. And I suppose like we we we tend to believe stories that that we listen to as we grew up. And one story or one belief that I listened to from my father was win at all costs. You know, win at all costs. Um, probably about two weeks after that big international competition, for the first time in my life at you know, 33 years of age, I asked myself the question, what is the cost of winning at all costs? Because I felt when I should have been at my happiest for getting a medal at a at a competition I trained four years for, I felt empty, I felt deflated, I felt exhausted, I felt down, I felt disconnected. And in hindsight, at that point in my life, I realized that I had given everything to one part of the web, the one part of the web of life, but in doing so, I negated several other parts, you know, health, relationships, growth, all these things. And I again I can only say this in hindsight, at the time, I think I think when you're in the trenches of ambition and achievement, you have tunnel vision. And that tunnel vision, you could argue is necessary to get to the you know the echelons or the peak of sport or business or life or whatever whatever it may be. Um like I would not have missed a training session. Uh if I had of you know missed the training session, I would have felt guilt. Um I I I overworked, I I didn't prioritize recovery, relationships, so on and so forth. And I I think what what happened with the crack was Richard, my my body just said enough's enough. Yeah, you know, and and I I through that drive of being ambition, again on reflection, I was a very stubborn person. So my my body was giving me signals for for years, you know, and that came in the form of tiredness, that came in the form of irritability, overwhelm, frustration, um low mood, lack of sex drive, anger, like these things were coming up, brain fog. So my brain was constantly my brain and body were constantly speaking to me in the run-up to these big competitions, I chose to ignore it, you know, out of stubbornness and out of spite, um, and out of ego, you know, and and I forgot that that the mind and body is such a wonderful, complicated and beautiful um I suppose invention from source, uh, and it it it just basically said enough is enough. And after I kind of peaked, um, I came crashing back down again and realized that my whole life I had been focusing on one side of the coin when it came to resilience, which was grit, determination, you know, persistence, being able to get through tough times. And in my in my naivety, I completely overlooked the other side of the coin, which is self-awareness, compassion, you know, self-understanding, self-love, kindness, self-respect, uh, the ability to pull back, the ability to recover, the bit the ability to debrief, to decompress, to reset. Um, and I suppose in many ways that breakdown was a massive breakthrough for me because it forced me to slow down, it forced me to understand myself at a deeper level. And I look back at it now with a sense of gratitude. But again, I say that in hindsight because at the time it was it was tough and it was bleak.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I I I think a lot of people do that. They they try to use that mental toughness to we're we're just gonna we're just gonna push through. And and maybe a lot of us were brought up in that way uh as well, you know. And the the other parts, the the uh the pushing harder, the numbing of emotions and everything, that that that really affects us. And as, you know, as a clinician and in in my work as well, we see this all the time where outward success is massing, masking this kind of internal depletion. And uh and people come in and they'll think it's they have an issue in one area and we we're going, well, I'm what and they go, why are you asking me all these questions about everything else? You know, why do you why do you have a 27-page uh health history form, you know, because I'm asking them all kinds of different things. And uh when we bring it into there, we talk about the different layers of health and wellness, like we said before, the emotional, psychological, spiritual side of things and everything. Then they slowly uh start to realize, yeah, there is something missing. Um like we said at the beginning, the the community aspect, I think this is a really is is a really huge one now, and uh especially guys and men. And I know you do a lot of work with men as well, and men were expected to be the the you know the the big tough person and uh provide, provide, provide, and uh, you know, and I think this really impacts on our health, not just men, but uh and who who men are in relationships with as well. So um, yeah. So um so would you say the things that you you you just mentioned before is how you would define resilience now, or would you have a uh how has that changed over the years? What would you term as resilience now?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

For me, resilience now, if you if you probably asked me, I would say capacity. Yeah. Um, I would say it's our window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

But I would say capacity or window of tolerance or resilience, I think it all stems back to emotional intelligence and self-awareness. And so what I mean by that is everyone is resilient. It's a human trait which we all have. Um, but however, we have it in different levels or different capacities. So it's something we can develop. Um, unfortunately, our resilience is often developed when we go through extremely tough times. But I don't think it needs to be like that all the time. I think you can develop it by, you know, challenging yourself in a healthy manner, whether that be upskilling, whether that be having a conversation with somebody you you usually shy away from, whether that be holding yourself to a certain standard, you know, developing resilience can look like a digital detox. It could look like spending time in silence or in prayer. Um it's doing doing hard things, knowing that there is a development of your character at the other end of it. Um but I I do I do think it is an essential human trait. I I I don't I don't necessarily believe that suffering in life is essential, but but I do absolutely believe that tough times um are a natural part of our life's journey. And I think that's probably the first part of resilience, which is acceptance. You know, I think I think Disney movies lead us to believe that life is linear and it's a straight line from A to B, but but what we know is that it's a series of ups and downs, it's a series of peaks and valleys, and it's a bit like the heart rate monitor. You know, life is meant to be up and down. In actual fact, the day that it flatlines is the day that it's over. So we need to accept that, you know, when we are in a valley, we need resilience to get back up and to a peak again. And likewise, when we're a peak, we need to have the awareness to know that one day we will go back down again because everything ebbs and flows. I think when when I talk um, when I talk about resilience with men in particular, I always start off by saying that anything I say from this point on goes through the lens of personal responsibility as the cornerstone of personal development. And what I mean by that is we we know what drains our energy. You know, we have a fur idea of what real relationships make us feel depleted, we have a fur idea that alcohol numbs us and that we feel really down after it. We have an idea of maybe not feeling aligned or fulfilled in our work. We we we know we have a deep knowing and a deep understanding. Um but it is one thing talking about it, it is one thing complaining about it, it is absolutely one thing pointing the finger. But I'm a massive believer that for every day you remain a victim, you will never taste what it means to be a victor. And and so I think there should be a massive emphasis on personal responsibility to change. And so that that sounds very harsh to some people when they hear it for the first time, and it may be harsh, and I think I think when we are adults and teenagers and our emotional intelligence has only developed so much, we can blame you know circumstances. But I do believe that when we get the adulthood and we have a certain level of emotional maturity, it is our responsibility to um suppose be responsible for our thoughts, our feelings, our actions. Um and particularly if you're noticing things that cause you extreme stress, um, chronic anxiety, depression, whether that's your food, the company you keep, the actions you're taking, then there's responsibility on all of us as adults to make a change for that. And and it's for me, resilience becomes superficial if we are not willing to if we are not willing. To embrace point A, which is personal responsibility as the cornerstone of personal development. And as opposed to it being harsh or brutal, I actually think it's a quite liberating statement. Because if you're telling me, if you're we're going through a bit of a health check and I'm saying to you, you know, my relationships are six out of ten, um, my health is five out of ten, I have brain fog, I have gut issues, I'm not sleeping great. And you say to me, well, guess what? You know, if you take responsibility and you get the correct information and data to improve these aspects from seven to eight and five to six and so on, then I find that quite liberating because then I know that the choices I make on a daily and weekly basis can actually fit make me feel more f uh fulfilled and aligned as a human being.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's um uh I like I like that idea, excuse me, of of measuring where you are and the different facets of your life and your health and well-being. And and often putting a number on it, it it can be very um enlightening for people because sometimes people don't think about it. And you know, if you find that everything's at a at a five or six, you're going, well, do you really want to go through life at a five or six?

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Doesn't mean that you all w everything has to be a ten, but you might be satisfied with an eight. Um so how do we how do we get to that point? And I think like you said, that point A, you know, um having that awareness uh is extremely important. Um and we can't change anything if we don't have awareness, right? Yeah. And uh and then I think the next thing is figuring out what you actually want. And it's surprising when you talk with people how little people really know what they want. And then how are you gonna get there if you don't know what you want?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Rich ri Richard, I I I agree. Like I I would deliver talks sometimes to companies that say we want our people to be more resilient. Um and we cover the the obvious stuff, but there's there's there's a time and a place to be resilient. So many people go into that physiological, that mental, and that physical um arena where resilience is necessary, but we don't always need to to enter the arena. Like things like clarity, you know, when you have clarity with who you are, what you want to do, and how to do that, you don't need to be resilience. Clarity gives humans energy, you know, clarity removes friction. So if you know who you want to be, where you want to go, you don't need to go into the trenches. And all if you if if you give any human being uh extreme clarity of what they need to do, they don't need to be resilient. And then even at a very basic level, like preparation. So you're like I know, for example, if I didn't sleep well last night, if I didn't eat well for the last couple of days, if I didn't hydrate for the last week, then my window of tolerance or my capacity to be resilient today is severely diminished. So if we are being required or called upon to perform at any facet of our life, whether it's a you know family get together, whether it is um being present for our children, whether it is leading a team, whether it is performing in sport, if we prepare, and we prepare our mind, our body, our spirit, you know, through the fundamentals of performance, which are essentially, you know, sleep, movement, nutrition, hydration, connection, then resilience is that that capacity or that window of tolerance develops in a very, very natural way because we can make decisions under pressure. We have you know good cognitive function, our body is is is is mobile, it's fluid, energy levels are high. So I think a lot of this, I think if a lot of this conversation with regards to resilience, well-being, and performance, it all stems back to simplicity doing what humans were designed to do, which is sleep well, eat well, move well, and and and be around other like-minded human beings.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's a there's a certain vulnerability there. And I know you've mentioned that in in some of your works before, um, how using vulnerability as strength, um, uh I think that comes into it. But and you're also you're working with leaders in high performance. So how does that vulnerability as strength, why is that still such a hard message for these high performers to hear?

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think vulnerability to well, suppose if you go to if you look at Carl Jung's kind of concept of self where you know you have um you have the self, you have the persona. The reality is we do as human beings, we have to put on different hats every day. Uh, like I have to be a different person to my wife than I have to be to a client than a friend to a child. You know, we we have to be flexible in our approach with behavior. The reality is that a leader puts on that hat and they assume they assume that vulnerability is weakness. They assume that if they don't know the answer, their team's gonna think less of them. They assume that if they don't perform at 100% all the time, then their position of leadership is under threat. I would argue that people follow leaders and therefore they want to connect with them. And the easiest way to connect with another human being is to show them that you yourself are human and to show them that you yourself are imperfect and that you yourself need help at times and that you yourself don't know at all. And so there's a again a wrong assumption that vulnerability is about oversharing, which it's not. Vulnerability is can be as simple as taking off the armor in a board meeting to say, you know, this has been a tough quarter. I have felt it tough too. Uh, I don't know the answer to that. I think I need help. I need to go and speak with my non-executive director. Um, it's it's it's about connection at its core. Vulnerability is about connection. I think the word um and the aspect of vulnerability has perhaps been bastardized a bit through social media where people can people can overtly be vulnerable for some form of validation or likes or comments on social media. And I think I think that's something we have to be very wary of because I believe that's not vulnerability, that's actually narcissism, where you are pretending to be vulnerable but for but for validation to suck people into um I suppose I suppose give you some form of of of comfort. Um but but true true vulnerability is is self-expression in many ways. It's just to say, I have strengths, you know, I I can't perform. However, if I have strengths, I also have weaknesses, I also have blind spots. And for me, human connection is if you and I work together in a practice, you will be better at some things than me. I may be better at some things for you, but I can compliment and shine a light on your blind spots, and you can compliment and shine a light on my blind spots so that together as a team we perform best. And again, that's the beauty of teams and people coming together. It's it's all about cohesion, it's about everyone that comes into a team is a is a singular piece of a jigsaw, but as Aristotle said, the sum is greater than the whole of its parts. So that when humans come together in a team and show their vulnerability of yes, I have strengths, but I also have blind spots, my jigsaw piece is bigger than some is is part of something bigger than I, I think that is a beautiful place to be. You know, that when when we are coming into a team or we are coming into an arena of some facet of life to say that I am merely part of something bigger than myself.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It it comes back to what we started about, you know, with the with the community. Um we can't, yeah, it's impossible for everybody to know everything. And uh we do really need to rely as a team, even in a family unit as well. Everybody has kind of their their roles and responsibilities. And I think in this modern age, uh that has become very confused as well because now in order to really to be successful these days, uh almost both parents have to be outworking, roles start to change, uh, the influence on the children starts to change as well. And then there becomes uh bickering and arguing in relationships. And uh, you know, I've done some psychology work with with couples as well before. And you know, it's there there sometimes can be unrealistic expectations, you know? Yeah. So now in I I've seen on both sides to guys to women and women to guys. And, you know, one example is um, you know, the the man and the woman will be working, and uh yet he's upset that the woman hasn't cleaned the house and hasn't ironed the clothes and hasn't cooked in that. And I'm like, well, wait a second. Are you not working the same amount of hours? And then you expect her to do another job on top of that and wonder when you're not getting things together. And I think this is the problem in society is it's become it we see it in medicine. Uh that's the analogy I can use. It's become very reductionist. So you have you've got a you've got a thousand and one different medical specialists, and they specialize in one thing. They are specialize on this cell in the body, and it's all fascinating and great, you know, but who's putting it all together? Who's putting it all together to make it work? So here we go, back again to the team, to the community, putting it all back together.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, yeah. A couple of great points, uh Richard, is you know again. I think a lot of couples, their ideation of what a man and a man's role is and what a woman and a woman's roles is are shaped by media, they're shaped by story, they're shaped by narrative. And I think like as human beings, we're unique, relationships are unique as well. And I think like for me, and and I'm certainly not doing this in a clinical setting, but when when two or more people come together to create something, whether that's life, business, whatever it may be, the probably the most important thing other than connection is communication. You know, so we're in a constant dance, and you know, people's values change. So my wife and I, we've been together for 21 years. Our eldest son turns 13 in August, and prior to him coming along, our values were we worked and then we saved up and we liked to travel, and we were each other's everything. And then kids came along and your values change because the kids become your everything, and you have to put the hat of a parent on more often than you get to put the hat of a lover, a husband, a wife on. And I think it's really important is to constantly communicate things like that and your perception of change and your perception of how you're feeling because I think there's there's a there's a wonderful, a wonderful word for uh leader, and it kind of originates from that kind of Basque region and it translates to pathfinder. And when I think of that word as leader, I think of of the leader navigating the mountaintops with a a torch, like a flame, and they can only see three feet in front of them, and they are communicating to an army of people behind them, and they wrongly assume that everyone behind them can see and feel what they can see and feel, and I think we do that as uh in relationships, we assume that our wife can see what we can see, we assume that our wife can feel what we can feel, and uh I love NLP, and there's a great expression in NLP: the map is not the territory, and so it's a real it's it's it's an assumption of me to assume that my wife's map of the world is the exact same as mine. The reality is we're viewing life through two different lenses, and I think it's very, very important to come together and both of us to shine a light on both maps to say, this is my values, this is where I this is the route I think which is best, this is what I think we need to do, and and and and have a have a conversation uh around that. Um, you know, it's that's I I just think communication within relationships is super, super important. It's something we don't get right when when when when life is busy, but uh yeah, couples that I've spoken to that have drifted apart, it has been through uh making assumptions and then ultimately allowing allowing lack of communication to drive that distance and drive a wedding a wedge between between two a couple.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, I yeah, I agree. I think I think we have I think a lot of us have issues with with communicating, um, absolutely, and it can make a lot of issues and problems. And I think some people assume they're communicating. Um people might be, you know, yelling or giving commands and think they're communicating. Well, this isn't uh this is an effect of communication. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

And and and totally, I mean, communication is in many ways how it's received by the other person as opposed to how it's omitted from you. You know, so um I I require a certain type of communication from my wife for me to kind of really understand how she's feeling and how she's experiencing life. Likewise, she she requires a different form of communication for me. So I think you know, like level one of life is self-understanding and self-awareness, which which is tough in itself. Um, and I think you know you you're constantly as you go through life, you're constantly peeling layers of the onion. You never you never arrive at self-awareness. It's a it's a it's a it's a infinite process, but I think you know that's just level one. The next level is having awareness of other people's feelings and other people's understandings and other people's map of the world and and communication for me is what bridges the gap between awareness of self and then awareness of of of self within another person.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah, yeah. I think you know, I I I'm a father as well, and when I became a dad, I said, how can I be better than my father? No, no, no, no ill will against my father that, but how how can I become a better father, you know, and because um I think in a lot of uh a lot of my age group growing up, we had parents, you know, with old country values and uh boom, boom, boom, this is how it's done, and uh you don't uh, you know, and it was kind of ruled by the iron hand type of thing, you know, and you looked at them wrong way, you got the pushing the back hand, and that's how it was. Um but I also know how that may have affected me growing up. Um, I think I had some good values uh that came out of, you know, working hard and this and that and the other. But communication, I'm going, I don't think I'm really all that great with it. So I said, how can I do different when my son came along? And I've become very aware of that. And instead of yelling and screaming, it's more kind of sitting down on his level, not the big adult up here and the child looking, you know, we're looking down on him, but going more on their level, talking, you know, seeing how that how they're feeling uh about situation. And that it really makes a huge difference. Um, absolutely. So um I think yeah, we definitely need to do that more. And so on that note, so from your perspective, how does chronic stress uh emotional disconnection show up in uh performance and decision making?

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah, it's I mean it's it's it's very it's very obvious. I'll give you a better example than sports. So in parallel with sports, for for 12 years I I was in the police. So I was in the the police service of Northern Ireland and I suppose specialising in overt counter-terrorism. And some of the things you were dealing with were very you know high pressure, high performance, and they could and regularly did, you know, it was life or death, and that was decisions that you had to make on the spot, whether it was regards to firearms, whether it was regards to how you communicated and at what level. And what I realized in that period of my life for 12 years is how your energy levels within your body dictate your decision making under pressure, they how they dictate how you show up. Uh one of the one of the I mean, I suppose the the unit I was in was 25 big hurry men, you know, and in general, in general, you know, um I'm just making a general sweeping statement, but perhaps our collective emotional intelligence wouldn't have been high. You know, these these were tough men that were fit, that had to do jobs that that that I suppose not many people were trained or wanted to do, you know, very a lot of tough training, a lot of um a lot of a lot of tough days, a lot of tough weeks. And we would have we would have used a traffic light system, Richard, again it was about moving away from research and moving away from clinics and and and supplying groups of people with little tools or techniques that allowed them to slightly improve their self-awareness or emotional intelligence in the arena and to be very, very agile at doing that. And so we used a traffic light system in our morning briefings, and a way to do that was to answer three sentences through the lens of a green light, which is rest and digest, parasympathetic service uh nervous system. Um orange was fight or flight, you know, and it's okay to be orange, uh growth requires you to go out of your comfort zone. Uh, and red was was burnout. You know, red was red was underslept, underfed, underhydrated, cognitive overload, uh, all those things. And we asked two questions in the morning. What colour are you? And what what is your direction of travel? And what I mean by that is if I'm if I am orange in my briefing, uh, that's okay. You know, the last week was tough, but my direction of travel's red. That's that's a fairly good indication that my interpretation is I am I'm I'm heading that way. I'm I'm heading towards making poor decisions, I'm heading towards, you know, that feeling of for me, stress showed up in my stomach. It was a feeling of anxiety in my stomach, it was um emotional eating, it was disrupted sleep, it was the the closer I got to red, the more on my own I wanted to become, which I think was an interesting point where we remove ourselves from the tribe. Um and how we kind of how we had that conversation as a group of men was if we can if we can finish the three sentences through each of those lenses, so I am, people are, the world is. So if I showed up to work and I felt connected, I felt high energy levels, I looked after myself, you know, the foundational blocks of performance were were were, I suppose, captured in sleep, nutrition, and so on, I would have said, you know, I am energetic, people are friendly, the world is colourful. But likewise, if I showed up orange, but maybe moving towards red, I probably would have finished those sentences by saying, I am stressed, you know, people are annoying, as in people are trying to pull me in different directions, and I perhaps don't have the energy to be pulled in different directions, and the world is dangerous, so the world is moving too fast. And so what it allowed us to do as a group of men was identify, you know, those internal conversations. I love Dr. Joe Dispenses' um phrase. He says that thoughts are the language of the mind. And so what we found was that a group of, as a group of men, we were having this internal dialogue, but we were never expressing it. And so that little exercise allowed us to think, okay, well, what's how how how am I thinking in this moment? How am I how am I logically processing today? How am I emotionally feeling? You know, am I feeling at a four out of ten? Am I feeling overwhelmed? Am I feeling anxious? Am I feeling grounded or excited? And I think that's very, very important because I believe that our emotional state has a massive impact on our human behavior. And so for me, within that role and within that job, my actions or my My behavior would would have been, and rightly so, very scrutinized. Um, but it also could have a massive positive or a massive negative impact within certain communities at certain times. And so that I knew that if I wanted to make a decision which was to the best of my ability, which was rational, which was thought through, that was emotionally charged, but in a positive manner, uh, and that it was an action that had consequences, but I was willing to stand over those, then I think that that that was something I needed to process very, very quickly. And those little kind of tools really, really helped us to I suppose as men process with those emotions of cock uh you know chronic stress and burnout, how they felt in the body, you know, how they how you process them in the mind, but but most importantly, how how our algorithm of action was impacted by that, you know. So one thing we spoke about, if if I was orange going into red and I was describing people as annoying, or I was describing the world as bleak, then those, I mean, that also referred to my wife, my kids, my parents, my my best friends, my brothers, you know, where you started to see them as an inconvenience because the body could only cope with the basics. You know, the body just wanted the basics of shell, like that kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The body, the the further it goes on that scale from orange down to red, it just goes into survival mode and your ability to thrive, your capacity, your window of tolerance continues to decrease, decrease, decrease. And and I suppose, I mean, a lot, a lot of a lot of the conversations we had would have stemmed from the work you do with regards to holistic performance and self-awareness and holistic health. We just had to simplify it in a way that it became very agile, very effective, far from perfect, but we had to progress um in face of and despite of perfection. And so these were tools that undoubtedly, I believe, increased our emotional intelligence, our self-awareness, and our ability to act within the arena, um, but all based off um tools around, you know, that that wonderful phrase we love, know thyself.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Yeah. I think that's there there's so many great things that you said there and so many analogies I can take into my own work as well. And it probably ties in when we're talking about that that chronic stress, that fatigue, that that being burned out. I mean, I see that every day here in the clinic. Um, you know, I specialize in doing advanced blood work and uh in looking at biochemical pathways. And when you look at the uh the adrenal stress, you know, kind of pathway. I always explain to people um that when you're in, like you said, when you're in survival mode, you cannot be, you you can never be in optimal health if if you're in survival mode because your body is just worried about surviving at that moment. And so therefore, it's going to take energy and resources from other pathways that aren't deemed necessary for survival at that point. And then it starts to make sense to people when they go, oh, now I know why my digestion doesn't work right, or now I know why I can't get pregnant, or now I know why I have sexual issues and problems, because those things aren't necessary right at that moment for survival. So it redirects everything to that part for survival. It's kind of like um for those that uh are old Star Trek fans like like me, where Captain Kirk is yelling down to the engine room, Scotty, I need more power to the shields or the phasers, whatever. So they're redirecting energy from systems that aren't essential at that time. And that's exactly how we work uh physically and mentally, emotionally as well. So um, yeah, I love the I love the what you just said there. And I think it's uh it's really a point that people really need to to get and understand.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yeah, but it's it's we we we kind of they they were our systems, you know. So in in the corporate world, these human skills such as communication, self-understanding, they're in my opinion, they're wrongly titled soft skills. Um in that particular job, we call them life skills, you know, and and and really emphasize them because a lot of the words that were being used, a lot of the linguistics were alien to to men that have been brought up a certain way, that it's you know, uh, like boundaries, for example. I'd never heard of the word boundaries before, you know. So to protect your energy, to protect your cognitive function, to protect your performance, you needed to have boundaries in place. Uh, and again, it was very, very hard to protect your boundaries when you were maybe dealing with large-scale public order, or you were maybe dealing with the victim of a really serious and horrendous crime, or a fatal road traffic accident, or a suicide, or whatever it may be. And we again used a system or an analogy to help us understand the word boundary, you know, um, which was the whirlpool analogy. So we kind of used the term again, it was a play on words for men, and so it was a lot, you know, empathy. Empathy, traditionally, men would see the word empathy as a perhaps having uh feminine attributes as opposed to masculine. So we talked about tactical empathy. You know, I think it's very, very important for us as a group of men to learn about compassion and empathy and and and self-understanding. And tactical empathy was that you come across many people in your personal and your professional life that are going through some form of uh turmoil, you know, some form of inner turmoil. And we spoke about them being in a whirlpool, and the whirlpool is is messy and it's spinning round and it's spinning round. And empaths, they want to get into the whirlpool with the person. You know, they want to get in and they want to help them, and they perhaps get some form of validation of getting into the whirlpool and helping them out. However, if you continue to get into the whirlpool with someone, you run the risk of exhaustion yourself. And it's a bit like what they say if somebody's struggling within a swimming pool, don't be getting in because they can drown you too. Throw in, throw in a boy or throw in a ring. And so what we spoke about is empathy is not sympathy. Tactical empathy, you still help the person, but the best way to help that person is to say, you know, don't panic. There's the steps beside you. You didn't see them. If you come to the steps, I will put my hand in and I will help you get up the steps, I will put a tall around you, I will give you warm food, I will help you reset and I will help you continue along your journey, but I cannot get into the whirlpool with you. And again, that perhaps sounds counterintuitive to a lot of people, but I suppose parents will understand that their kids are often in whirlpools. Um, people we have people in in our lives that are constantly in a whirlpool. And I think from a resilience point of view, again, that window of tolerance is is severely diminished when we continuously get into the whirlpool with people. I think we are led to believe that to be kind is is to go into the whirlpool with them, but that's not protecting me or my boundaries. For me to have strong boundaries, yet still empathize with that person and to understand they're going through hard times. And I really, really want you to get out of that whirlpool. And the best way for me to do that is to show you where the steps are, so that you take action to get out of the whirlpool, so that you ever go into it again, you know that there's a way out and how to do that. And so these kind of what we called agile tools, I suppose they allowed us as human beings that were performing under pressure a lot to to deal with all these things, I suppose, outside of the clinical setting, but in a way that decisions needed to be made, and decisions needed to be made very fast and and and and allowed us to have a better understanding of all these things that you and I both love, you know, the the the connection between between cognition, between our physiology, uh, between our emotional body and between our spiritual body and how they all intertwine and align.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Yeah, yeah. I I I love that analogy that you had with the whirlpool. Um, because I've seen that so many times working with people and and probably if I'm honest, in in you know, in in past relationships and things, I think we probably all had that to some degree. And um it's yeah, it it's really interesting because yeah, you don't want to get I don't want to I don't want to get caught up in the whirlpool and go down. Um but then we're afraid we're afraid to offend the person because they don't we they're when we feel that we're not supportive of them. But like you say, we've got to show them the way, help them to to build themselves up. But how do how do you get around with that if somebody takes that as an offense?

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Yeah, I think listen listen, it's like like all these things, it's easier said than done. I suppose I suppose if I look back at that job, you came across victims of crime that were in their whirlpool, yeah, you know, and but you had to remain professional and you had to point to the steps and help them out. I think it was easier to do in my professional life. In my personal life, I've had some people that go into the whirlpool all too often. And again, I'm a massive believer in the mantra of um progression over perfection. And so I have got into the whirlpool before, and I have got wet, and I've realized that um soon after or in the days after, there's a an emotional dive or there's an energetic dive where I'm realised, God, that that that's taken it out of me. And so it's okay to make mistakes and get wet every so often, but again, going back to the personal responsibility aspect, if there is somebody in your life that constantly finds themselves in a in a in a whirlpool um and you are constantly going in after them, I think you're within your rights, and I think it's absolutely necessary as an adult to protect yourself and say, I can't keep going in there. And and and this is the thing with with with with authenticity, Richard. Like there's a great quote that has been kind of it's it's I believe it was perhaps Aristotle said it. Um Mike Tyson of all people came a version of it, and he said that if you are a friend to everyone, you're an enemy to yourself. And we can't please everyone, we can't be a friend to everyone. Um, you know, it's it's very, very important to be kind to people and to be respectful and so on and so forth. But the reality is relationships require a lot of energy, and so if there is somebody that their expectation of me is to continuously get into the whirlpool of them, I think that that's an unfair expectation, and I am happy to communicate that, and if they don't accept that, then that's on them, you know, that that is on them. If I if if if I'm if I can articulate that in such a way and show evidence in that, you know, I've I've got into that whirlpool with you time and time and time again, I want to see you do good, I love you. However, this is having a profound negative impact on me, and for my own sanity and for my own safety and for my own you know self, I need to put a boundary in place. And so, yes, by all means, when you find yourself in a whirlpool, you know, ask me for help. But from now on, my help is going to be to point to these the the steps to get you out of the pool, and I will be there when you get out of the steps, and I will be the one that drives you, and I will be the one that heats you up, and I will be the one that continues to walk the path with you. But that's that's my that's my expectation. And if you're not prepared to meet that, uh despite the fact I'm I'm articulating that's having such a negative impact on me, then perhaps it's it's time for for for our paths to to go separate ways. Um and and for me, for me, that whole that whole authenticity piece is quite important when it comes to resilience. I heard a great I heard a great line. I went to see Dr. John D Martini in Belfast, who he's he's great with regards to the science of values and voids, and he said that authenticity is when your daily actions are congruent with your highest values. And so if I really feel strongly in value that I should not be getting pulled into the whirlpool with that person, yet I do it time and time again, that's me being inauthentic, and therefore I'm going to feel that at a cellular level. And so for me, in that moment, my authenticity is the articulate to that person and keep my boundaries in check, uh, you know, in a mature and in a kind way. But I think just the the the reality of life is that you know we we can't be a friend to everyone, you know, we we we we can't we we can't be dragged in all different directions because our energy is finite. I believe our energy is finite, um, and and it's it is important to protect that. Now I think in relationships you give your energy away. So we give a lot of our energy willingly to kids, we give a lot of our energy willing willingly to our partner, to our closest friends, and so on and so forth. But uh we have we have to give energy to ourselves, you know, and and and and and we can't I think in Ireland in particular, we have been led to believe that that's selfish. And I I think it's selfless. If I am if I am if I am if I am acting in congruence with me and I'm doing something that is important to me and my values, and that allows me to show up better for you, then I think that's selfless in many ways, uh, as opposed to and I think I think we see it, I think we see it really clearly with women and mothers where they won't take a break from themselves because they develop guilt and they say it is selfish, you know, I shouldn't be doing this, I should spend this time or money for the kids. But in many ways it's selfless because if they step back and if they recharge their battery and they enter back into the childhood bubble, then you know they're a better version of themselves, a better parent. And the beneficiaries of that are are the children.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's a certain personal responsibility there. Um absolutely. Um yeah, yeah, it it's very interesting. I I I love what you said there. Um, I love the work of John Di Martini. I think uh for anybody that does doesn't know what their values are, check John's work out and he'll help you uh just get you can get one of his books. Uh it really helps with that. And I find that's a great stepping stone for finding uh helping people to know what they want. Um if you don't know what your values are, you're gonna have a hard time finding what you want, that's for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

And um what what I love about his um he has a 13 question values determination process, and the 13 questions are quite similar and and and they're designed in such a way to allow you to slip into that unconscious mode, you know, because that they're worded in such a way, and and and the first time I'd done the determination process, my highest value was business and then family, and then freedom. And I had a certain amount of guilt about that because I thought, oh, it's expected of me to put my family first. Yeah. And as we went deeper into it, it was a great expression, your highest value fills your highest, your biggest void. And so my void of childhood was, you know, sometimes struggling to meet ends meet. And the reason I valued business so much was because that my void was I didn't want my children to experience that. So it was, it was, it was, it was funny just to see all that kind of layered out in front of you through through John's work with regards to the values and the values process. And again, it it it explains your behavior because he would argue that your behaviors are a result of your unconscious values, you know, which which is which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, it's it's yeah, it's there's there's so much to to to take in there, but yeah. Um so in modern leadership, when it comes to well-being and performance, what what do you think is broken right now? What what do you think is needed?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

I I I think I think I think the reason there's issues is because we see well-being in the in the world of leadership and performance as supplementary as opposed to essential. You know what for me it's it's very, very obvious if if we imagine a pyramid structure and the peak of that pyramid is high performance, and what I mean by that is above average performance over the long term. That can only be achieved, and most importantly, that can only be sustained through a strong base and a strong structure of the pyramid. The strong base and the strong structure is well-being. It's it's to have optimised, healthy, aligned, fulfilled human beings. Now, that's not to say that we are going to go through tough times or that we're gonna be put under pressure or that there's times where we're gonna need to be resilient. But the the more well we are, you know, the the the the more we have mental fortitude, physical capacity and health, emotional regulation, you know, spiritual connection, the more we develop that, the bigger the base of the triangle becomes, therefore, the easier it is to achieve and sustain high performance. And I think and and and one thing I'm doing at the minute is I do a lot of events within the corporate world with regards to leadership, and I bring in athletes to have this conversation. And I think there's a lot we can learn from the world of athletics and sports because they have a great phrase which says we can only train as hard as we can recover. And so that they know like performance is very small, you know. So a an athlete primes themselves, so that's that they will prime their body, they will prepare their mind, and then they will perform. And then after that peak performance, they start to recover, you know, when they focus on their their nutrition and their sleep and their recovery and so on and so forth. In the corporate world, they never prepare, they try and perform all the time, and therefore that their their baseline of performance is severely diminished because they haven't they haven't primed the body, they haven't primed the mind, and they don't recover. And so there is it's almost like a form of insanity where they're trying to sprint all the time and wondering why they're tired, why they're burnt out, why they're making poor decisions. And there's so many studies on this with regards to humans' capacity to perform at a high level, it's in little short, you know, bursts. And even you know, something I've got into is, you know, if I'm working from home, I set a timer for maybe one hour and I'll work at that one hour, and I need to go for a walk, I need to decompress, I need to do something to then go back in and perform at a high level again for the next piece. But if I was to try and perform at a high level from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., which is your generic working day, you as my leader are not going to get the best version of me. Um, and so I think I think the corporate world and modern leadership can take a lot through which is arguably the purest form of performance, which is sports, and to understand that humans can't sprint all the time. You know, they understand that humans need to prepare mentally, physically, emotionally for to perform in the arena. And when they perform in the arena, whatever that looks like, they need to recover from it, they need to decompress, they need to debrief, they need to reflect on what went well, where the improvements can be made, you know, what challenges they understood so that they can integrate those into the psyche so that when they enter the arena again, that information is embedded within them. And that's not happening. There's this there's this uh skewed view that you know we're still in the industrial age where humans need to work nine to five and perform suboptimally over the long term.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's yeah, it's it's very good. Um I was gonna say something and it just it just skipped my mind, but anyways, I'm sure it'll come back there uh in a sec. Um so okay, so we talked about uh building resilience. So for the listeners, what daily practices can build uh resilience, not just motivation?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

Yeah, I think I think um I I remember listening to somebody before, and let's say there's there's three ways in which a human you can get a human to change motivation, desperation, and inspiration. Uh and motivation is the pursuit of pleasure, it is the pursuit of dopamine, but it's very short lived, it has a short shelf life. Inspiration is the avoidance of pain where we've been through something difficult and we don't want to go back there. And that is arguably more important than or more stronger than motivation. For long-lasting and change, we need inspiration. And inspire comes, you know, it's it's a word inspirit, you know, something bigger than ourselves. And I think, again, it probably sounds superficial, but it ties back into self-awareness. How can we better understand our purpose? How can we better understand our vision for the future? Who do we want to become? And I think when we develop an emotional attachment to that version of ourselves or what great looks like, you know, because that journey from A to B, it's going from our current state to our desired state. We all have desires. So, how do we develop an emotional attachment to our desired state of reality, which requires a better version of us? Again, athletes do this. I've worked with a lot of athletes where they will visualize lifting a gold medal in two years' time. Um, and but most importantly, once they can start to clearly see that gold medal in their mind's eye, they start to develop an emotional attachment to it. And that desire to be stronger and part of something bigger than yourself is greater than the challenges you face. And so I think it's important every so often to reflect on what great looks like, you know. So if you're asking me questions, perhaps like the wheel of life, you know, you, Kieran, you have described your marriage as six out of ten. What does great look like? You've described your relationship with your kids as five out of ten. What does great look like? Because it allows us to step out of the current hamster wheel and and for a fleeting second to peek behind the veil to say, well, this is possible if I were to make better choices and to take personal responsibility. And I think it is, I think that self-reflection piece is is is vital. I think in in in the world where it's very busy all the time. I'm a huge believer that the more reflective you are, the more effective you are. So if you reflect every so often on what's going well and what's not, that allows you to make better decisions and better choices to become that person. Um but I think I I've kind of I've kind of lived the last couple of years, I suppose, since I went out of my own, I've lived it by a formula which I took from the world the world of powerlifting, and I've applied it to life and I've applied it to business. And I've kind of grew my business the last number of years, and I I probably lack talent. I certainly have never, I was the first person in my family to go self-employed. I left school at 16 with, you know, I didn't go to university until I was in my 30s, and I had no handouts, but I kind of went in with this same formula, which is consistency plus discipline multiplied by time. And I believe that if if any human beings are to apply that formula to any aspect of their life, whether it's sports, business, parenting, research, um, you know, if I if I identify what I need to do on a consistent basis um for for whatever it may be, and I have the discipline to see that through and develop a cadence. So for example, you know, you you want to create a podcast to increase your message and impact on people. And so therefore you you need to say, okay, um, I need to put an episode out once per month or once per fortnight. And I need to have the discipline to follow that cadence through. And I need to develop systems which help me. I need to set myself up for success, you know, and so therefore, I may record it in batches and I may schedule those to go out on the second Friday of every month. And so long as I commit to this over a period of time, then that scale will increase. I will become faster, I will become stronger, I will become more understanding, I will grow my podcast, I will grow my revenue, I will lead my people better, whatever it may be. Most people give up at the multiplication multiplication, which is time, because time can't be measured. We don't know if it's going to take two weeks, we don't know if it's going to take two years, we don't know if it's going to take two seasons. But what we need to do is to get the first two right and then have faith and stick with that consistency and discipline that time looks after itself. And it's I I spoke with an investor recently and he applies the same formula to investment, where he has the automations and the consistency to make small investments in the stock exchange and in different business. He has the financial discipline to do that every every month and review that every quarter, and then he allows time to look after those investments in itself. So, in many ways, you might not see growth for a year, two years, three years, four years, but over a decade, over 20 years, those investments become life-changing and it makes him very, very wealthy. And I think life is very much the same if we if we are aware of who we want to become, if we are aware of what great looks like and we develop an emotional attachment to that, and we can show up consistently and in congruence with that version of ourselves over a period of time. I think you know that's when life changes drastically. And that's when we realise for the first time that in many ways we are the author of our own story and we are the creator of our own story, which again is quite liberating once you see, you know, those chapters start to unfold.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

Absolutely. Yeah, I love what you said there. That's that's really the the recipe for success in life, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

Yeah. I I believe so. I I believe so. I think you know it's it's very boring, it's very simplistic, it's not a red pill, it's not something fancy. It is, you know, and again, I have interviewed dozens upon dozens upon dozens of athletes and high performers. They all focus on the basics, they all focus on the fundamentals, they all embrace boredom, they all embrace, you know, getting getting those things right. And I think, I think in this day and age, humans chase the shiny object. You know, they order a book from Amazon, it arrives a couple of hours later, they don't read it or they do read it, they throw it to the side. It's like we we have lost our ability to do the mundane, but it's in the mundane where success lies. It's in the daily practices, yeah, it's in the you know, constant conversations with your spouse, it's in the daily school run with the child where they feel your presence, it's in the daily grind in the gym, it's in the showing up to the office early. It's it's it's it's those things. And I think if you can do those things, you're you're ahead of 80% of the competition. And most importantly, um you are living in congruence with your highest values.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I think with a lot of these things, the greatest value is being able to to write those down and and review them on a daily basis. Um in the past, when I was back in Canada, I had the privilege of working with um the late great uh Bob Proctor, and he always he always used to hold up his pen. He goes, This is the greatest tool you ever had. And he goes, but most people never really ever use it, you know, planning and writing things out, making your lists and doing what's actually on the lists, you know. Um yeah, that's important. So, so Kieran, okay, so what's next in the evolution of natural resilience?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

So this this year, January, um I I have, I suppose, created a program where it's called the Fit Founders Club. Okay. And it was designed for founders of companies. And it is at a different approach where I feel as if a lot of business owners put themselves last. And this is so when they sign up, we give them a whoop, for example, like a wearable device, and we ask them to be aware of their heart health, their sleep quality, their heart rate variability. We ask them to review and reflect on their key relationships, on their stress levels, and so on and so forth. And we have created what's called a founder operating system, which combines data from the likes of Whoop with your own kind of you know, innerstanding and judging of yourself and relationships. And then we we show business owners how to make better decisions in their business through through that and um bring in key experts within marketing and sales and finances and operations. And what's next is is essentially to continue to grow that, Richard. So we have 20 founders started in January, and they'll they'll run together as a cohort for a year until the end until the end of 2026, and then we'll kind of begin that again with a new cohort in January 2027. Uh, and the goal, the goal is over you know the next decade to help hundreds of of founders uh create more health, more wealth uh and more freedom. Um that's that's something that I'm very passionate about and something that I I hope I can continue to grow over the coming years.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:37

Oh, that's that sounds fantastic. That's that's great. And so so if we were to fast with that idea in mind, if we were to fast forward that 10 years, how would you hope the resilience is taught in schools and workplaces and healthcare systems?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:53

Yeah, I think I think I think in schools, like that traffic light system, for example, is is is so easy to understand. It's visual, it's colourful, everyone knows what a traffic light looks like. But I think, you know, my my kids are coming 10, 13, and it's something I'm passionate about that that you know me and their mum will say, How are you feeling? Um, how is this test making you feel? How are you processing that? Your my son's team was beat in the final in football at the weekend, you know. How are you feeling? I think sport's a great, great life lesson, but son, how are you feeling after that? You know, what's your views? Most importantly, the next day, okay, like, you know, we have to get up and go again. Um I think I think in schools, those simple exercises, those simple conversations, those, you know, little tools, um, I I I think schools do an awful lot of great work through the like I'm I'm a massive, a massive advocate that sports is a great teacher of resilience because you can't win them all, you know. Um but within within like public service, within hospitals and and and and and schools for teachers and all the rest of it, uh I I think it's going to be hard, if I'm honest with you. I do believe that, you know, a lot of companies I'm working with at the minute are are hybrid or fully remote. Um I feel, and this is just my belief, that it's harder to connect with another person just digitally. You know, just just digitally. I I do believe it's harder to connect with somebody if we're only meeting on teams calls and so on and so forth. And so I I believe that we are actually going to see a decline in resilience and capacity within teams, uh, particularly in the corporate world over the next decade. And I I particularly with the explosion of AI, um, I think I I again just my prediction, I I feel as if AI will make a lot of jobs initially obsolete. Um, but there will also be a lot of noise and a lot of AI slop. And I think at some point it will give humans a reminder of the importance of human connection, of the importance of community, of the importance of simplicity, of the importance of nature, of the importance of, you know, connecting with somebody emotionally. Um, and I think you know, we will go back to that. Uh, and it's something I'm already seeing in my work where, you know, that course I'm running, it it costs a lot of money to put on because once per month we give them a really special um bespoke experience in person in a cool venue with guest speakers and so on and so forth. And that's the highlight for a lot of people. They want they want to be in the rooms, they want to feel that visceral connection of being around like-minded people, they want to pick up on people's body language and pick up pick up on people's emotions. Um, so I I I believe it's going to get worse before it gets better. Um, but but I you asked me where I would like to see it going. I would like to see a re-emergence of the importance of community. I think I think that's that that is is vital. Um, and it's often it's often like if we look at the pillars of health in many ways, mental health, physical health, emotional health, spiritual health, I believe social health is is one of those pillars as well. And it's probably the pillar that goes unnoticed. Yeah. Um, however, um in a recent study, Ireland was voted as the loneliest country in Europe, which shocked me, given the fact that we are known the world over for our friendliness, our hospitality, the gift of the gab, and the fact that you know the Irish diaspora is a wonderful community, but we've also become very in a great way, you know, very tech heavy, a lot of people working from home. Uh, and and so that that that loneliness, that that that conversation with regards to loneliness and also the um the connection between loneliness and a decline in mental and physical health, I think it's going to become more prominent. Uh, and I hope, I hope we start to see technologies, for example, that bring people together. You know, there people can go on the app and say, you know, I'm Kieran, I have an interest in painting or the arts or sports or sea swimming, and the app will show you, well, here's several other people you can go and meet, or here's a group you can, you know, go and meet in person. And um, yeah, that's uh I think community and connection is is where I would like to see the conversation with regards to resilience going.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:52

Yeah, yeah, that that's great. So um so then just a couple more questions for you. Um so then what does living a resilient life actually feel like when it's working?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

I think I think again, two sides of the coin. Like, are you on a peak or are you in a valley? It it feels it it feels very different at both. I think when you're in a valley, when you're going through tough times, and running a business can be extremely tough at times. You know, you can have significant significant financial pressure, you can have cognitive overload, having to learn constant new skills, whether it's marketing or AI. And resilience then is sometimes perseverance, persistence. Uh, sometimes it is about grit and determination and and not giving up. You know, it's it's not shying away from that. Sometimes we just have to outlast people, you know. Sometimes we just have to outlast the self-doubt, outlast and outwork all that. Uh, when you're at a peak and that clarity is there and that um I suppose flow state, it's I think it's I think it's relevant to reflect on. It was probably hard work got you there. You know, it was probably hard work got you there, and that that emotional peak or that mental or physical peak is most likely a result of having come through certain challenges. And I think those challenges, you know, as they say, the challenge maketh the man when we when we overcome a tough time in our marriage, when we overcome a tough time in our workspace, when we overcome a tough time in our life, and we go out the other side and integrate the lessons in which that obstacle teaches us, we reach a peak. You know, we develop, we improve. Um, but arguably we only we only improve because we outworked an obstacle or we overcame an obstacle which was on our path.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very good. Last question for you, Karen. Uh I want to respect your time here. So if there's one message uh you'd want people to hear, especially those quietly struggling, what would that be? Reach out to someone.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

And and again, that sounds oversimplistic, but we, particularly men, when we are in a period of stress or overwhelm, frustration, when we are in a valley, we tend to go into hermit mode or lone wolf syndrome. You know, we don't want to overbear our wife with our stress, we don't want to be seen as weak within our friend group. Uh, we make the assumption I can deal with this all by myself. And what we do is we enter this cave and it becomes quite dark and quite bleak. Um, and it's okay to go in in there for a short period of time, but we don't want to stay within that longer than necessary because that's you know what's it's it's unhealthy. And I feel as if if there's somebody listening that's quietly going through a tough time of and they feel as if I'm currently in a peak or sorry, I'm currently in a valley, reach out to someone, you know, reach out to a colleague, a friend, ask them to go for a walk or to go for a coffee. And it's not oh it's not burning them, it's maybe asking for advice. It is articulating how you're experiencing life in this moment in time and saying to that person, have you ever came across this before? You know, what helps you deal with stressful scenarios? You know, how how do you approach this? Um, you know, could you point me in the right direction? Do you know anyone that specializes in, you know, why I'm feeling and how I'm navigating life? But we we we I feel as if if you are in a deep folly, a bit like the whirlpool, we rely on somebody saying to us, there's the steps to get out. Here's a hand, come on, I'll help you out, here's it all to get wet. Like when we are in a whirlpool and we can't see the way out, we require another human being to to do that for us. And we I think I think I think making the call that you can do it yourself all the time is the wrong call to make. And it's it's most likely the ego and it's most likely pride and stubbornness, a bit like me and burnout with powerlifting. And I think you know, it is we all need a mentor, we all need a guide, we all need an arm around our shoulder, we all need support, we all need community, we all need connection. And so if somebody's listening, thinking that's me, it is reach out to somebody within your network, within your family, within your friend circle, somebody that you've spoken with last week, last month, somebody you went to school or college with, whatever it may be, we all have someone that we can reach out to to say, listen, I am struggling to navigate something. Could I run this past you? Could uh I'm struggling to make heads or tails of this, could I run it past you? Um, or could you listen, uh uh I want to have a conversation with you, could we go for a coffee? I think that is the greatest gift you could give yourself is the gift of the gift of listening to someone else.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

Yeah, I think yeah, I think that's great, fantastic advice. Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody wants to reach out to you, Kieran, how would they go about doing that? Finding out about you, your work, your programs, your coaching?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:18

Probably LinkedIn, to be honest with you, Richard. Um I do have a website, and you can message through the website. The website's natural hyphenresilience.co.uk. But um probably the the the friction, most frictionless way is through LinkedIn, which is Kieran May. Um I do I do have social media, which is under the company name of Natural Resilience, but somebody helps me run that and and so I kind of dip in and out. But certainly at least once or twice a week I do go onto LinkedIn and answer messages and and and reply to them. And that's that's probably the easiest way.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:50

Okay, great. And we'll we'll make sure we'll put that in the show notes for people as well. And uh so Kiran, I I really appreciate your time today. Uh I I really enjoyed this conversation and uh and I'm sure that the listeners uh will as well. And uh on that note as well, you know, for sharing information with people, if somebody can value find value in this episode, please uh please share it with them. Um please also subscribe. I know it sounds like a cliche phrase, but um this kind of information is not always put out in the mainstream. So uh this helps to get the word around for everybody. So I'd like to thank Kiran again uh for your time. Uh I hope we'll I hope we'll do a part two sometime because I have a feeling we could probably talk for hours on this subject. And uh thank you to our listeners as well, and we'll catch you on the next uh episode of the Integrative Continuum. Take care. Thank you for joining me on the Integrative Continuum. I hope today's conversation gave you new insights and practical tools for your own health journey. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe. Share it with someone who would benefit, and leave us a review. It helps us spread this message further. Until next time, I'm Dr. Richard Rocker. Stay curious, stay empowered, and keep moving forward on your path to integrative health.